Round 58: Schadenfreude

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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by HATER on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:53 pm

Scept wrote:So... basically, this round's gonna be a clusterf*ck of WTF? Hoo boy.

Also, Yoshi's a Raichu. He probably won't take kindly to being referred to as his inferior pre-evolved form.
A clusterfuck of BALANCED wtf.

Unlike certain games *cough* Unownist's witch hunt *cough cough* Mentlegen's multifaction game *cough cough*, each person in the game should have a roughly equal chance of winning.

As for Yoshi. My bad. But Raichu or not, he'd still be dead though.

French Connections wrote:In.

DA wrote:
Shadi wrote:3. Means if X causes a tie, X ends up getting lynched.
how is that diplomatic?
I don't think it's about being diplomatic. It's about preventing Nale-ing the game. :P
^This.

Coinflip = randomness

Incentive + roles with vote powers = hilarious, glorious chaos.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Archer on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:02 pm

HATER wrote:
Scept wrote:So... basically, this round's gonna be a clusterf*ck of WTF? Hoo boy.

Also, Yoshi's a Raichu. He probably won't take kindly to being referred to as his inferior pre-evolved form.
A clusterfuck of BALANCED wtf.
I hate to say it but frankly none of this sounds balanced at all so far.

It's good that Shadi won't leave hints in the story because that's incredibly stupid and game breaking.

But the idea of expecting a certain number of people before starting the round is also game breaking. It's a mafia game BEFORE it's a themed game. As the mod it should really be made responsible in his/her own hands that each side can retain the "uninformed majority vs. informed minority" without having power roles eat that up and toss things off a cliff.

Also the "you will see roles you've never seen before so use your imagination" principle is entirely ambiguous. Even with regular roles, deciphering which role does what, when, how, and who it is, can be a task. Doing that for roles we've never seen before is a legitimate impossibility that relies on luck. ESPECIALLY if everyone is getting a power role.

I'll give it a shot, lie back and watch, since you and Shadi don't seem to have a problem with it, and I don't know how things work over at your forums but still. I really just don't like the vibes of where this is going right now from the sounds of it.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by HATER on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Responses in my customary lime green.

HATER wrote:
Scept wrote:So... basically, this round's gonna be a clusterf*ck of WTF? Hoo boy.

Also, Yoshi's a Raichu. He probably won't take kindly to being referred to as his inferior pre-evolved form.
A clusterfuck of BALANCED wtf.
I hate to say it but frankly none of this sounds balanced at all so far.

It may not sound balanced, but hypothetically, if levels of skill were exactly the same in all players, then the chances of winning would roughly be equal for each faction.

It's good that Shadi won't leave hints in the story because that's incredibly stupid and game breaking.


Well, a) I'd be writing the story, if any.

and b) I'm getting mixed reports on this. Link says he thinks it's okay, whereas you and Nale seem opposed. I'm gonna leave this one up to DA, because I don't want to break any rules or anything in your community.

But the hints in the story would contribute to balancing out some of the deductions problems you've mentioned, see below.



But the idea of expecting a certain number of people before starting the round is also game breaking. It's a mafia game BEFORE it's a themed game. As the mod it should really be made responsible in his/her own hands that each side can retain the "uninformed majority vs. informed minority" without having power roles eat that up and toss things off a cliff.

Of course. And the powers and abilities of the village / anti-town faction(s) should pretty much balance each other out, given that it's a closed game with no (public) role flips on death (both of which are quite beneficial to the evil factions).

Also the "you will see roles you've never seen before so use your imagination" principle is entirely ambiguous.

It was meant to be. I can't give all the roles away in the first post, now can I?

Even with regular roles, deciphering which role does what, when, how, and who it is, can be a task.



Doing that for roles we've never seen before is a legitimate impossibility that relies on luck. ESPECIALLY if everyone is getting a power role.

I forget if this was mentioned in the original post, but in case I failed to mention it or anyone failed to see, PM-ing is allowed and ENCOURAGED. Getting claims out of each other is essential in games with new roles.

The "use your imagination" part was aimed at fakeclaiming (again, happens a lot on our forums and the game specs were written up to our format), sorry if that caused any confusion.

The main sources of information in this game are...yourselves.


HOWEVER. The thing about revealing small details in the story is that they may help the main factions in discovering possibly game-breaking (if you didn't know about them) roles. It is, again, a balancing measure.


I'll give it a shot, lie back and watch, since you and Shadi don't seem to have a problem with it, and I don't know how things work over at your forums but still. I really just don't like the vibes of where this is going right now from the sounds of it.

I appreciate the feedback. I really do. I ask only one thing: that people play seriously and don't knock the game until they've tried it.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by MrNaleIt on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:33 pm

HATER wrote:if levels of skill were exactly the same in all players, then the chances of winning would roughly be equal for  each faction.
AHAHAHAAA... that's a pretty big "if" you got there
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by HATER on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:04 pm

MrNaleIt wrote:
HATER wrote:if levels of skill were exactly the same in all players, then the chances of winning would roughly be equal for  each faction.
AHAHAHAAA... that's a pretty big "if" you got there
Quite.

Of course, levels of skill aren't the same in any game, but I've tried to design the roleset so that skill will be the deciding factor.

Of course, one can never be sure 'til the game runs, but that's how it's intended, anyways.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Archer on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:11 pm

"It may not sound balanced, but hypothetically, if levels of skill were exactly the same in all players, then the chances of winning would roughly be equal for each faction."

Since when is that ever the case. That just makes things worse by a longshot.

"Of course. And the powers and abilities of the village / anti-town faction(s) should pretty much balance each other out, given that it's a closed game with no (public) role flips on death (both of which are quite beneficial to the evil factions)."

Role madness does NOT work that way. Any round that's had more-ludicrous-than-"normally"-balanced role counts has NEVER worked like that. It's only ended in shenanigans more than making leeway for a more straightened thought process and strategy, grouped or individual, and in fact only hurts the latter a lot more for loads of obvious reasons.
Also what does that have to do with expecting 23 people.

"It was meant to be. I can't give all the roles away in the first post, now can I?"

Missing the point by a marathon's worth.

"I forget if this was mentioned in the original post, but in case I failed to mention it or anyone failed to see, PM-ing is allowed and ENCOURAGED. Getting claims out of each other is essential in games with new roles."

...but that purpose only contradicts itself if the point is to lie about it. That doesn't make things any more balanced if you could ALREADY lie about your roleclaims before. All you're doing is just making things more impossible to decipher. People can also choose NOT to role reveal, which only makes these ideas the only real complication.

"HOWEVER. The thing about revealing small details in the story is that they may help the main factions in discovering possibly game-breaking (if you didn't know about them) roles. It is, again, a balancing measure."

That... goes a lot of ways so I won't say anything because then we'd be here all day.

"I ask only one thing: that people play seriously and don't knock the game until they've tried it."

I dunno if that was especially aimed at me but just fyi, I haven't been able to joins rounds as of late anyway.

I'll be completely honest with you, and don't hate me for this, but I really hate the sound of these ideas.
Tenure isn't a universal factor and it's not like I'm joining it anyway, I just hope we're avoiding a catastrophe. From the sounds of it imo, we're probably not.

TL;DR: My main worry is that you seem to think quantity equals quality and that somehow the sounds of "we will make things so ludicrous that they will cancel eachother out and balance eachother that way" is a legitimate tactic when it's failed in every area that principle has applied to.


Last edited by Alpar on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Gam on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:14 pm

HATER wrote:
Yes.
If you cause a tie, you die. Yoshi's voteswitching caused a tie, so the poor poor pikachu is strung up for the round :(
So say this happens

Vote poll:
Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 3 - person, person, person
Next person - 1 - Gamage

And I want to save myself

Vote poll:
Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 4 - person, person, person, Gamage

Does this now kill me?
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Shadi on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:32 pm

I usually don't like to sit and put small cute anime girls in my avatar but for once, I like your avatar Gam.

And yes, I never hosted incentive before myself but looks like it. I usually go by LHLV, = the one that has the tie amount the longest (be it 5, 4 or 11) will be lynched. Which is a bit better but less exciting than coinflip.

Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 3 - person, person, person
v

Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 4 - person, person, person, Shadi

Gamage still lynched.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Link Lab on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:46 pm

HATER wrote:It's good that Shadi won't leave hints in the story because that's incredibly stupid and game breaking.


Well, a) I'd be writing the story, if any.

and b) I'm getting mixed reports on this. Link says he thinks it's okay, whereas you and Nale seem opposed. I'm gonna leave this one up to DA, because I don't want to break any rules or anything in your community.

But the hints in the story would contribute to balancing out some of the deductions problems you've mentioned, see below.
I didn't mean to say it was ok, more that we've never really decided what was ok to mention in story posts and what isn't so we don't currently have a rule on it.

Also, I can think of a round where on one of the night story posts, the role that the mafia had targetted, the role of the mafia doing the kill and the roles that had stopped the mafia from killing that role were stated. Using last round's roles as an example, let's say that the Morneon leader tried to kill the elf but the sorceress and the amazon stopped him. Obviously, that wasn't the full story but that was what it condensed to.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you mean by clues in the story though so I can't really say if it would be fine or not. Actually, it's never even been discussed if that was fine or not.

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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Archer on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:02 pm

Shadi wrote:I usually don't like to sit and put small cute anime girls in my avatar but for once, I like your avatar Gam.

And yes, I never hosted incentive before myself but looks like it. I usually go by LHLV, = the one that has the tie amount the longest (be it 5, 4 or 11) will be lynched. Which is a bit better but less exciting than coinflip.

Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 3 - person, person, person
v

Gamage - 4 - person, person, person, person
Other person - 4 - person, person, person, Shadi

Gamage still lynched.
>girl

pfffffbbfbffhhhh

also wow that's a dick move. That happens when he tries to save himself? Yikes.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Shadi on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:10 pm

Alright we still need DA to clarify the following:

1) Mind us inviting anybody?
2) Which of these rules that aren't allowed.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Yoshi on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:44 pm

HATER wrote:
Yes.
If you cause a tie, you die. Yoshi's voteswitching caused a tie, so the poor poor pikachu is strung up for the round :(
*looks at self* Um...I"mma raichu dood also out cuse this is too complicated for me,have fun though.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Tael on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:17 pm

Oh c'mon guys, give it a chance. Might as well at least try out something different before slamming it, because who knows - I trust that they'll do their best to make the round fun.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Shadi on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:22 pm

It'll be decent experience, if it turns out bad we'll try something new/not host or host your ways.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by DA on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:15 pm

HATER wrote: I appreciate the feedback. I really do. I ask only one thing: that people play seriously and don't knock the game until they've tried it.
>people play seriously

seriously, I haven't seen that much pre-round bullhonkey since Stalin's round in Draco's forums.

...as for these shenanigans...
Shadi wrote:1) Mind us inviting anybody?
Yes. I do mind.
pls don't.

Shadi wrote:2) Which of these rules that aren't allowed.
to be fair, I have been guilty of spilling some info about roles and night actions in the story before (See Time Travel Mafia and Pokémafia)
I've done my best to reduce this to a bare minimum (See Puyo Puyo Mafia)
So the less hints, the better.
Of course, this is only a suggestion, so go nuts with this one if you please.

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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by StalinCommander on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:19 pm

I do remember back in Nethernet. These games were fun as hell but everyone was taking it seriously.
We might not, but, hey, I'm still expecting it to be something nice.

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[12:55:11 AM] Zyquux: inb4 stalin is playing us all

Zyquux wrote:From now on, I'm voting Stalin day one.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Aboithagameboi on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:52 pm

What the fuck

In
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Shadi on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:42 am

DA wrote:
Shadi wrote:1) Mind us inviting anybody?
Yes. I do mind.
pls don't.
Well this might make the player amount goal hard which will mean rolelist would needs to be revised in the end, I guess. Oh well, we'll try to get so many as possible from the already signed up guys then. :D

Btw, I updated the sign up list; if you are missing or not supposed to be there - shoot me a PM or write in the thread.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Zink120 on Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:27 pm

What the fuuuuuck is going on???

Oh well sounds dead interesting so I'm in.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Dracojounin7 on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:19 am

I'm in, I guess. I haven't participated in a while, so...
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Rainboy on Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:19 pm

Yoshi wrote:
HATER wrote:
Yes.
If you cause a tie, you die. Yoshi's voteswitching caused a tie, so the poor poor pikachu is strung up for the round :(
*looks at self* Um...I"mma raichu dood also out cuse this is too complicated for me,have fun though.
Are you my long lost father, beckoning me to the dark side? I ACCEPT. GIVE ME THEM COOKIES.

Also, you should play anyway. These games are hilariously fun.

Tael wrote:Oh c'mon guys, give it a chance. Might as well at least try out something different before slamming it, because who knows - I trust that they'll do their best to make the round fun.
Step right up, folks. Comes see the one and only fantastically awesome monstrosity that is a Hater game.

Seriously, though, you all are in for quite a treat if everyone takes the game seriously (but not too seriously).



In, by the way. I've been entirely too inactive here of late and Hater does seem in rather desperate need of some names on that signup list.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by MrNaleIt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:29 pm

Rainboy wrote:monstrosity
I agree wholeheartedly with only this adjective.
Rainboy wrote:Seriously, though, you all are in for quite a treat if everyone takes the game seriously (but not too seriously).
hahahahahahaha
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Gam on Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:08 am

Alpar wrote:
Shadi wrote:I usually don't like to sit and put small cute anime girls in my avatar but for once, I like your avatar Gam.
>girl

pfffffbbfbffhhhh
You thought Fujisaki was a girl too, Alpar.
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Diabeetus-Tan on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:55 pm

that's a lot of posts

I dunno if I'll have time to be super active on this one but I'll say in!
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

Post by Vatonnage on Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:28 pm

Four pages and the round hasn't even started yet
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Re: Round 58: Schadenfreude

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